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weird responses

Sun, 06/08/2008 - 05:57 — glueye

Hi,
I've been working really hard training my 2 yr old kelpie dog. She is a reactive type dog who I socialized too much when she was a pup. I put her in situations she wasn't ready for. Anyway she is coming along well but she continues to confound me. She tires of any treat or toy very quickly even if it is kept away and "special".
She is uninterested in treats in places where she is very relaxed but when clicking and treating her for calmly watching dogs pass she can't get enough of them, even treats she doesnt really like. I thought the principle was the opposite, that the calmer and more secure a dog feels the more readily they will eat, engage and learn.
Also, we have been working on ignoring people downtown, because she would love to shove her tounge down anyone's throat and is way too excited about people. She is doing great and I was treating her for ignoring people but at a certain point she stopped taking treats when they passed and got in an ignoring mode but also started to ignore me! she'll fall asleep downtown now so I know she is relaxed. But its all very confusing. If she is great at ignoring them, shouldn't she be better at focusing on me? Instead she is slow to respond.
I thought maybe she needed another reinforcer other than treats but I find the same thing with toys: she will completely LOVE chasing the new raquet ball I got her. then the next day I throw it, in the same location, and she ignores it. This is only the second or third time she has ever played with it and she could care less about it. She loves anything NEW.
Can you make any sense of these patterns?

Thanks!
Mackenzie

Comments

Sun, 06/08/2008 - 23:36 — dogwalkerartist

weird responses

hi,
i just wanted to comment about the bit about her quickly losing interest in new toys, because filou(mini doxie) is the same way with the exception of a particular rubber squeaky ball. my solution has been giving him new challenges, teaching him new tricks, new games, making his brain work-he loves it. i only play with the favorite toy for a few minutes, then quickly switch to obedience games or tricks or vice versa. try the 101 things to do with a box game. i'm teaching filou how to paint. i also do alot of "watch me" training. Sue Ailsby training levels are excellent.
i was reading about kelpies. a breeder of kelpies said they are very brainy and need alot mental stimulation.
sorry don't really have any understanding of the why. filou has also been more responsive to any food treat since he started exercising more and his owner started feeding him less.
Good luck! jen

Tue, 06/10/2008 - 13:46 — Aidan
Aidan's picture

kelpies

Hi Mackenzie, knowing the breed fairly well I'm not totally surprised at some of her responses, which would be unusual in most other cases.

It's difficult for me to make any real comment without seeing exactly what you are doing, but it does actually sound like you are on the right track.

I would have her work for every calorie. No meals. If you're unable to work with her on a particular day, give twice as much the next day. Just make sure she gets everything she would normally get in any 3 day period.

Give her little jobs to do. My guess is that she would probably like nothing more than to do stuff for you, and that giving her that opportunity would be the best reinforcer you could choose. You may not need a "service dog", but your dog may need to be your service dog!

The relationships we have with some dogs are different to those we might have with other dogs. My guess is that your dog needs something to DO, not something to BE - if that makes sense?

There was a great book put out by the ABC (are you in Australia?), a collection of stories about working dogs. You can find it in some libraries in Australia, but I can't remember the name, it's something like "Great Working Dog Stories of Australia". Anyway, it's a good read, and if you can see past the human perceptions and gilding the lily you get a very good idea of what a true Australian working dog is really like. Something that might surprise you is how some of those dogs will fight with other dogs, but work quite happily alongside them while there is work to be done.

That is actually the basis of the reactive dog training I do. I just give the dog something else to do. Of course it's not THAT simple in practice, but that is what we end up with after a lot of controlled set-ups.

Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com

Thu, 06/12/2008 - 05:33 — glueye

kelpies

"it does actually sound like you are on the right track"
you don't know how good it is to hear you say that! She is constantly improving in many areas, but also she seems unpredictable as to what she finds rewarding and interesting. So, I should just keep working and eventually her attention to me in situations where she is in "ignore mode" will increase? I do treat her and work with her all day long (we spend all day together) but she eats raw so I can't really carry that around.

"You may not need a "service dog", but your dog may need to be your service dog! "
this is actually exactly my goal for us, I want to teach her so many things, tricks and training levels and all, its just sometimes a catch 22 because she needs so much stimulation but gets bored with things quickly. Sometimes I lament and don't understand how I can have a kelpie with a huge prey drive who won't play frisbee or ball with me for more than 10 minutes! Although play and tug with me is one game she really loves, but for lots of situations too exciting, and tiring!

One last thing that may be contributing to the problem is that I haven't done a good job of always ending while she is still really liking the game because that time period is so short it catches me by surprise. I was thinking of some sort of 300 peck attention strategy, where I'll do one go to mat with her, one ball throw, one frisbee throw etc per day and then the next day two of each game, and up until she is uninterested and then start back at one of each. Does that sound like a good idea? Luckily she knows a lot of games. She's only 2 yrs old, and as I get better and she gets older hopefully things will be easier. Thanks for your help!
-Mackenzie

Fri, 06/13/2008 - 14:34 — Aidan
Aidan's picture

re: kelpies

>> So, I should just keep working and eventually her attention to me in situations where she is in "ignore mode" will increase? <<

You should actually be able to measure an increase... that's the only way to know if you're getting reinforcement of that response or not. But basically, yes. I think that most of the time you probably are reinforcing that behavior.

If eating raw is stopping you, then put a list of priorities together and decide how important it is for you to feed a strict, raw diet. Most people would find the behavior problem to be a higher priority in the long run, and there are degrees of compromise.

A friend of mine actually used to carry chopped up raw chicken necks and rubber gloves around - almost my definition of insanity (can you imagine it on a psych report?), but in her case it was a definition of absolute commitment to both goals.

Myself, I found healthy, convenient alternatives to raw treats and made a fairly big compromise. Then again, I'm also of the opinion that domestic dogs evolved eating our left-overs anyway. It's the nasty additives I try to avoid.

>>don't understand how I can have a kelpie with a huge prey drive who won't play frisbee or ball with me for more than 10 minutes!<<

10 minutes is a LONG time. Every dog is different. I have a high-prey GSD from working lines who will only play for 7-8 minutes, my "sleepy" Goldie will play for longer - if he's near water. Some dogs will literally play for hours but they are very rare. Owners always talk these sorts of figures up, especially on the internet.

>>I was thinking of some sort of 300 peck attention strategy, where I'll do one go to mat with her, one ball throw, one frisbee throw etc per day and then the next day two of each game, and up until she is uninterested and then start back at one of each.<<

I like the idea! Let me know how it goes. That is a very cool lateral thinking process you must have!

Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com

Tue, 06/17/2008 - 11:58 — glueye

kelpies

Thanks for all the advice.
I will track her progress, and let you know how the 300 peck strategy goes. In the short time I've been implementing it, it appears to be working. I have also been staying more aware of ending the game while she is still very interested in it.

And I'm not against non-raw treats, I would just like the bulk of her nutrition to come from raw meat. I have been carrying extra treats around and clicking her for attention when she gets into the ignore mode. She still tries to ignore, but will start playing the watch me game, which I think is a good place to start!

Thanks Again,
Mackenzie