Positive Petzinegrooming and biting
Aiden,
A while ago, I posted a cry for help regarding Hedy (bichon) and trying to groom her. You sent a wonderful list of suggestions, all of which we tried. We did make hed-way (ha-ha). However, we never got past the biting behavior. I wanted to tell you I have resolved the biting.... maybe not the problem.
After a month or two of Clicker and treat, I had to resort to the M method (muzzle). I am embarrassed to even say the word as I hate the idea of them. It did work. Or at least I have my fingers. She will "submit" when I use it. She still squirms, and her mouth is open as much as can be.... but I have been able to remove the intense mats that had to be pulling her skin. She did act somewhat relieved after I cut them out.
Given this scenario, do you have any suggestions of how to procede from here? What are your opinions on the muzzle method?
Thanks
Christy
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re: grooming and biting
Hi Christy, I use muzzles where appropriate. Clicker training is something you can use from day one but it doesn't mean you will be skillful immediately and be able to train difficult behaviours like this without going through the learning curve.
If the matted hair is building up faster than you can climb the learning curve, then what option have you got? Don't feel bad about using the muzzle! A vet or professional groomer would!
There is something you need to understand about clicker training. While someone like Laura (in the video) or myself might be able to start grooming a dog in the first session (or maybe not!), that is because we have done this sort of thing a hundred times before. We know what we're looking for, we know when to click - you're still figuring this out.
What I would suggest is that you stick with it. But slow down - in the instructions I gave you there was no room for failure, no chance of being bitten. If you are at risk then you are moving ahead too quickly. Maybe you were trying too hard to groom when you should have been doing something that approximated grooming but didn't draw a reaction? You can do this with ZERO reaction if you are patient and willing to move slowly.
Another trainer I respect has a saying "make haste slowly", meaning it is often more efficient to be patient and not try to rush ahead too soon. I broke this task down into dozens of steps for you, go right back and be patient with the first step and I guarantee this will work.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
grooming and biting
Aiden,
I love the "make haste slowly". A good one to put in the brain for reference.
I have another question about this subject. To answer your question: Yes, the matts were were building faster than the learning curve. I resorted to the M word for, as you said, professional groomers/vets would use them. Having groomed my own dogs for many years, I can do most off it. However, I never had one who would not let me brush or clip.
Hedy, has had a "thing" about her head & ears since she came to me. From what I could tell from the Petstore ( shame on me.. but you go where you go) was she was not handled much during her months stay there. Consequently, she was fine to pet and hold, but NOT good about any grooming. So, are you waiting for the question?
Since, I can't be really consistent in my attempts to groom, can you use the muzzle until she gets more used to brief brushings... even the pretend ones.. and then slowly remove the muzzle and use the clicker?
I want her fear/anxiety/biting to decrease/extinguish and then move over to clickiing?
Christy
re: grooming and biting
Yes, you can use the muzzle as a tool to keep you safe.
There are two different situations here:
1. Actual grooming, where you need the muzzle because you need to really groom her (which will not be all that often)
2. Training, where you can use the muzzle just in case you push her too far - BUT, just be sure that you don't push too far BECAUSE you have the muzzle. Imagine that she doesn't have it on. Set her up for success.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Grooming steps to avoid biting
ok--I'm new--how do I find and read the step by step guaranteed not to fail?
I need that too.
Hi Lesley, I don't know
Hi Lesley, I don't know about "guaranteed not to fail" but it's as close as you will get while still being practical -
http://positivepetzine.com/node/341
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Help on truly bitter rescued at age 13
Had dogs all my life and multiples, did Lhasa/ shih tzu rescue too, so thought I had a grip on the biting thing. Ha.
Took in this 13 yr supposed toy poodle X shih tzu (whom I really think is Lhasa mix with maybe poodle but see no visible signs of poodle in her). Her owners since 6 wks old were going to PTS because of biting and vet tech convinced them to let her find a home as no apparent physical problems.
Well, I took Nicci off her hands as I DID have Lhasa brain tumor w/biting + yorkie-w/liver shunt till fixed biting experience. Ha big HA!
Nicci is, after 8 mos, allowing me to pet her most places and not bite immediately, but sometimes does in midst of a few gentle petting strokes. She has also bit and hung on (rat like) so that she even fell to floor (once while gently cleaning eyes and once when putting arm around but not touching her, while sitting next to her) when I snatched my hand or arm away.
Not AS bad after first few days, when she did a few really vicious foot attacks for no real reason (first day raising toe of shoe up to block her sneaking thru door while pushing mother's wheel chair, next times when stepping carefully over her and not touching her.
THEN made my first huge mistake about a month in. I noticed on vet records she'd had ruptured anal gland about 3 yrs before, so had my husb hold her to squeeze it....yes, it needed it, and then we trimmed toe nails which also needed it.
After that she bit me about ever time I tried to wipe her or pick her up for anything. She is calming now, but clearly is not "living in the present " and clearly "hold a grudge!"
With GREAT care I have managed to slide a scizzors in to clip a snarl here and there. She always bites--seems to bite at scizzors not as much at me. Her vet records also remrked on about 5-7 stitches for a cut arm from the groomer about a yr or two ago.
She also goes on occassional frenzied grass twig, digging thru ice and snow to get at if taken inside, licking around edges of carpet and bedfoot etc in places of max. hair and dirt collection and then vomits a huge bezoar. This happened 3 times for no apparent reason, always at night.
I took her to spec. clinic for radiologist U/S and every blood test available and stool sample etc but they could find nothing amiss and believe it to be psychological.
The vet tech promised to vet that she wouldnt let anyone contact the owners as they were so heartbroken about PTS. I really think she perhaps ALWAYS had this biting behavior and it was bad breeding/temperment coupled with perhaps too strict training (when told to sit or down after she bites me, she just shakes and quivers, but has obviously had some obedience training and the whole "nothing in life is free" treatment, which clearly didnt work to stop her fear based and territorial based and possiby cute-spoiled-dog-syndrome).
Anything rough or gruff as she bites ( like grabbing scruff of neck and putting her in time out bathroom with a stern No) accellerates her and makes her into a wild shaking frenzied fighting for her life state.
I found what DOES help most to calm down/decelerate is either giving a quick puff of air into her snarling face as I hold her under the arm pits and VERY quietly talking to her and telling her "no, give mommy a kiss only--only kisses" and yawning and licking my lips--her own language before giving a kiss, which she usually then starts to mimic, and then gives me a kiss.
I DID use a muzzle, but took 3 min first time I put it on for her to get it off, 1 min second time and 10 sec. third time. My vet gave it to me, and fitted it to her, so.....?
After that she refused to let me put collar on for walks--I think it is the click sound of plastic buckle or not wanting ME to control her....maybe both. I am the only one who does try to caretake her.
I do hate clicker/ gadgets and she is a dog who will eat very little, even treats and is not at all tempted to eat, so I think food will not at all work. Praise is good.
Bio: I had dogs all my life , did a little showing when a youngster, and had multiples up to 8 at a time, feeding all and walking all together--always yorkies, Lhasas Shih Tzu (never had poodle, and have since Nicci heard that toy poodles are biters--do not know if that is true. taught for 14 yrs in inner city schools of Chicago, and did volunteer gang outreach. I am not a "fearful type' but I am now hesitating on picking her up or grooming her.
For 8 mos now my hands and arms are bruised and often bloodied, and nails have blood blisters under. Clearly something else must be tried.
re: Help on truly bitter rescued at age 13
>> For 8 mos now my hands and arms are bruised and often bloodied, and nails have blood blisters under. Clearly something else must be tried. <<
Clearly! You certainly aren't a quitter though!
OK, so you read Mr Hooper's Sketch and you have noticed little things like the click from clip on the muzzle, telling her to sit or down etc are all classically conditioned stimuli that bring on fear/aggression etc She's had 13 years to learn all this so let's be realistic - we're not looking for a complete cure but it would be nice if you could do the basics without getting hurt.
First things first. I have no particular emotional or philosophical attachment to clickers or any other gadgets, or using food. They are tools. When I build a boat (just a hobby) I use half a dozen different planes, two of which I made myself and one that my grandfather had which you can't buy any more.
I can use other tools for everything I do with a plane, and I probably really only need one or two good planes but I have half a dozen sharp planes because they are the best tools for the job they do! If I hated them I would still use them because I have a job to do. I would still begin each day by touching them up on the sharpening stone and giving them a few laps with the strop.
So forget that you hate clickers. Life is too short.
Food always works. There isn't a dog alive who doesn't eat. If you stop feeding them, they die within a few weeks. Not only is it necessary, it is efficient. I don't always use food, if a dog is clearly after something else and I can give it to them, why would I? But the rest of the time I try to use food because it is efficient to train with food.
Even very small, older dogs need to eat. You don't have to give them much, but they do have to want it. For that reason sometimes you need to "teach a dog to eat" first, and the instructions are here:
http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Writing/TeachEat.html
Once you have the tools, and they are sharp, you can go to work. The instructions I gave before are appropriate here. Once you have been through the process for grooming you can probably figure out what to do about the collar, but I am happy to help if it doesn't seem to be working for you.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Biting/clicker/Hooper/food
Did not find link to Hooper story--please provide...Is that the biting dog you mentioned doing everything wrong?
Yes, at 13 I still hope to get her to want me to hold her and take care of her. If she can get to trust me, I think she will, unless she has that NCL thing, which her rages point to a bit.
Forgot to mention about Nicci--I have 3 other very sweet dogs at this point, one girl blind, deaf and very small but very confident, and Nicci is very careful around other dogs--as yet no aggression and also shows respect to the max for their things and gives WIDE berth.
I think this MAY be the key to behavior correction for her, but cannot completely figure it out. IN A GANG, SHE'D DEFINITELY be the lowest rank, and often they are the most unpredictable.
Another thing is her vision--blind in one eye and not very good in other...has been to eye spec. as well. I think she bites when she doesnt see me/my hand coming.
Forgot to mention this as well, that she seems to be very hard of hearing and likely almost deaf, but very smart. Her response to any vocal or noise stim is not noticeable. This is why I sort of doubt the clicker use or that the snap sound of the muzzle is what turned her from the leash/collar. I stumbled on either the hand gestures she is used to for sit and down (have not figured out yet how to get her to come) or trained her fast--not sure which.
FYI--I am willing and going to try anything non-harmful with her at this point, and will try clicker and see if she can hear it or responds at all.
When I got her she had not eaten in at least 2+ weeks (all the while at vet tech's house, apparently, as she had lost a lot of weight. She should be about 14 lbs, and was 9 lbs...she is now up to about 12 lbs. I cook for my kids, and she is now liking to eat limited amts of wholesome food. I feed her by hand mostly, and also give herr "biscuit treats of many varities, most of which she won't even smell good, but she does take Milk Bone for Puppy biscuits and sometimes eats, and now often plays with them. She must have had them in her past life. She also gobbled a cheap green biscuit she was given at McDonalds--obviously she had that type too. I cannot abide buying dog food with dye in it for her.
Her PLAY is attacking a small stuffed animal which was going to be burried with her.
To my way of thinking it is CLEAR that dogs do NOT live in the present if they have a past they miss--maybe street dogs, or puppy mill dogs but a cherished but biting dog at 13 I think WOULD have been better off being PTS. You can tell she is happy now and settled and is just now starting to explore etc, but 7 -8 mos is too long to have to suffer her loss of her people. We think she will be our first dog to live to be 20, she acts so young and spry. Just my luck. A typical age for them is 14-15.
I am actually now rethinking my will regarding my dogs. I used to think people who had dogs or cats PTS when owner died were terrible.
Aiden, don't you think hearing only slightly means clicker is a waste of time? As to food, I cannot get her to take a bite of chichken, liver, steak or red deer sausage generally, until quite hungry.
>>Aiden, don't you think
>>Aiden, don't you think hearing only slightly means clicker is a waste of time? As to food, I cannot get her to take a bite of chichken, liver, steak or red deer sausage generally, until quite hungry.<<
Sorry to take so long to reply, I have been very busy.
Yes, deafness will make a clicker obsolete if she is completely deaf. Try it and see, she may well be able to hear that sort of frequency.
Some hunger is important, but learning to eat is even more important. I would generally just use the day's food for training. If no food is taken in the first day, no big deal (provided she is healthy). After you get the ball rolling it gets easier. I have a plan for dogs who are fussy eaters if you need it. Like many things, attitudes towards food are learned.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com
Aiden, I just read through
Aiden,
I just read through all of the biting tribulations! Wow!
Just two things:
One: thank you for all the humor and simple sage advice you give. I love the part about not getting "stuck" on one method such as clickers and followed by "life is too short" . The use of your metaphor in building a boat also brings home the message of use what works.
Two: I had two lhasa rescue dogs. Neither was as emotionally damaged as the one in this blog. I wanted to tell the owner how impressed I am with her tenacity. One of our dogs would "bite" without warning too. She was a wonderful, sensitive, and loving dog. However, when people were visiting and went to pet her, she would tolerate it for a time and then, without warning, turn and snap. Several times, she connected with flesh. Visitors soon learned not to pet her. The strange thing was she would not do it if we ( her owners) were not around, as when a friend dog-sat.
Is this just a breed characteristic of Lhasa"s that they are "owner protective?"
Christy
>>Is this just a breed
>>Is this just a breed characteristic of Lhasa"s that they are "owner protective?"<<
It's not part of the breed standard. Breeders will often allow certain traits to be passed down the line that breeders of larger dogs would avoid.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.positivepetzine.com